Proposed Zoning Changes Work Session

March 25, 2008

Plan Commission and Redevelopment Commissioners in attendance- Don Calvert- Plan Commission, Willis Ziese- Plan Commission, Sandy Hash- Plan Commission, Darlyne Sowder- Redevelopment Commission, and Phil Smith- Town Council and Plan Commission member.

Meeting Minutes- Minutes were for reference, but not voted on.

Abbreviations: RC-Redevelopment Commission, PC-Plan Commission, BZA-Board of Zoning Appeals, TC- Town Council

Sandy Hash- Meeting called to order by Sandy Hash, it’s my understanding that this meeting is in continuation of the February 19, 2008 work session. There were comments made at that work session and we’ve taken the time to review those notes, not all of us were there at the February 19, meeting. So, we are aware of some of the existing concerns. So, we don’t have an agenda for this evening. I’ll turn the meeting over to Frank Nierzwicki.

Sandy Hash- I would entertain a motion to accept the work session minutes as presented of February, 19. Phil Smith made a motion to accept the minutes, and Willis Ziese seconded. (Please note **** on page 4)

Darlyne Sowders- I found some typographical errors that could change the meanings of some of the statements.

Sandy Hash- The corrected version will be placed in the Redevelopment Minutes.

When you wish to speak, please come to the podium and sign in.

Frank Nierzwicki- We are here this evening to receive more comments from the public and board members. At the end we’ll wrap things up and the board can then give staff directions on how to proceed.

Sandy Hash- Would anyone like to make a comment at this time?

Russ Ryle- I’ve done some research on the general zoning process. The value of property can be changed with the stroke of a pen. You decrease the value of their life’s work. Mustang Drive and Edgewood Village were discussed. I’ve been told this would be taken care of and nothing has ever happened. Ellettsville has never been a tourist trap or a visitation place, it never will be. It is a small community of businesses and individuals working together. You are blessed with 6 to 8 viable businesses adjacent to this redevelopment area that will be damaged if you proceed as proposed. I challenge this blanket rezoning of an area is fair or in the best interest of Ellettsville.

Carl Thurman- I have an interest in downtown Ellettsville- 430 Vine Street. I’m currently working with the current owner of the property to purchase this property and our deal is contingent on what the zoning changes will be. The business I want to do will be of high quality, taste and appeal. The building will need a lot of cleaning and renovation to conduct a classic car restoration business. My comment with the zoning, this area is in a floodplain. Industrial businesses would not be as affected by a flood, but others may have more issues with carpet getting wet and walls being damaged. The current building there would not have those same issues. I’m watching the zoning changes carefully before I proceed on with my plans.

Kenny Anderson- My brother and I own Stop and Go Muffler on Temperance. I spoke to Frank earlier on the rezoning. I understand that our property will be removed from the rezone area, so we can stay C-3. I would like to have something in writing if that is possible.

Frank Nierzwicki- We could, if directed by the PC and RC we could write a letter stating that your parcel will remain C-3.

Sandy Hash- I think the public has spoken. I know we can’t continue to except out property, but I would like to work with the ones that have objections. How close are you to closing on the building?

Carl Thurman- We are very close to closing, but the proposed zoning changes have hampered the closing at this time. I would like to see it remain a C-3 for the value of the property. I would like to move from our current facility to the downtown area in June. We need to know if the zoning is going to change. I need something more concrete. I wish Dan was here, because he’s the one that has the potential economic loss.

Sandy Hash- So, if he were to go ahead and purchase the property and finalize the deal before we complete our redevelopment process, would he be grandfathered as long as he owns the property?

Frank Nierzwicki- Yes, as long as he owns the property, but I think that is an issue also, correct, Carl.

Carl Thurman- Yes, because I do plan on building a thriving business that would retain its value and be worth far more than my initial investment.

Frank Nierzwicki- I would recommend as one option, that we schedule a BZA meeting soon.

Sandy Hash- I don’t understand why we have to have a BZA meeting if we haven’t finalized this zoning, if we want to except that out and it’s the mutual feeling of the group, which it may not be, but if it’s why can’t we designate that with this whole issue, before another board.

Frank Nierzwicki- I was just thinking about the speed of the process. The BZA has waived the filling fee before. We could have a variance at the property to have a certain use. That could be faster than having a decision, unless the PC is ready to do that at the next meeting.

Sandy Hash- I just don’t understand. He has a C-3 zone right now, correct.

Frank Nierzwicki-Yes, but we are looking….

Sandy Hash- and we’re going to change it, but how can he go to the BZA and get an appeal against a proposed change, he would have to wait until we are done and then go to the BZA.

Frank Nierzwicki- I’m trying to cut corners for him, there won’t be a cost for him to go to the BZA….

Sandy Hash- How can he go to the BZA to be a C-3, he’s a C-3 now. We are complicating this more than it has to be.

Frank Nierzwicki- I’m trying to make the process on this faster. We are looking to have this on the May agenda.

Sandy Hash-But, we’ve excepted out the muffler shop, why do we want to go against a business we know we have instead of hoping we’ll have business there in the future.

Darby McCarty- One thing, once you start making other exceptions, then you’re right back to where you started. Sandy Hash- What is a variance going to do, what’s the difference?

Frank Nierzwicki- The variance would change the use forever.

Sandy Hash-Have we researched the redevelopment area to make sure there are no prior or existing variances?

Frank Nierzwicki- I don’t have anything on the books for that, we could check that. It would have to be May 1, for the first PC meeting.

Sandy Hash- Ok, then he’s going to have to go before 5 more people and start from scratch and then you’ll have to educate the people on the BZA.

Frank Nierzwicki- No, let’s take it to PC, there is some talk of excluding this out on the zoning, and I don’t know what the outcome will be, to take it to PC May 1, rezoning in this area. If excluded, Carl will be happy on that, and the second thing that could happen is it’s not excluded, and then to schedule a BZA meeting immediately after that and …………

Sandy Hash- He can’t until this is finalized; he’s an existing C-3.

Frank Nierzwicki- What I’m trying to do on this, is I need to schedule before 5, and have Carl ready, let’s ask Carl. You would like to have a decision on the first. If the decision isn’t the way you want it would you want to appeal it to the BZA?

Carl Thurman- I think it would be up to the property owner to decide that, and I currently do not own the property, I do have a tentative agreement, but I haven’t closed the deal.

Sandy Hash- Can we canvas the commissioners, and ask for their opinion?

Frank Nierzwicki- We’re not voting on anything tonight.

Sandy Hash-I was just going to ask their opinions.

Willis Ziese- Carl can you educate me a little about this. I understand your desire to start this business and I think this is a good idea in my opinion, and you want to be able to sell the business at some point in time. It would be what you have developed and someone else would take it over and expand it or continue it.

Carl Thurman- Yes, exactly. Classic car restoration can provide a good living. I would like to build it up to a point where I could retire and if there is a change of ownership a variance may not allow what I have to be permitted.

Willis Ziese- So, you want to sell it as the business you have developed. Is that true?

Carl Thurman- Yes.

Frank Nierzwicki- The issue is, it’s the use and not the person. A number of people would say Carl will have a very good business at that location, from his previous record and with his commitment to do so. The issue that the Planning staff has is that the next person and that’s what the use would be. The biggest issue is not to have unrepaired cars for long periods of time and maybe we could come up with a mutual agreement on what that time would be. We don’t want to have a storage yard. It’s a fine line, with a C-3 he could do that and we don’t have any control over that from a town prospective. If we go to a variance issue we can stipulate and negotiate with Carl. Does that answer some of the questions on a C-2, C-3 and a variance?

Willis Ziese- A variance could assure the community that the character of the business, of what Carl developed, and not at some point to deteriorate again into something else.

Terry Baker- Once he sells the property, the other guy can say yes I’m going to continue on, once I buy that property, if I bought it I can do anything I want to with it, if it’s still C-3. I can put a salvage yard in there and there is nothing anyone can do about it the way it is now.

Carl Thurman- I would hope the person that purchases this property is interested in keeping the same quality that I want the company to build into.

Russ Ryle- I keep hearing about zoning overlays. Would it not be more efficient to let the current property owners keep what they have and attack this by revisiting our zoning, and make a zoning overlay? Therefore you could have a business like Carl’s, but if someone else wants to come in they would have to come before you again to request that change (a junk yard). I think you are using the wrong planning tool to obtain the objective. You should look at the town as a whole. This would give the town more power, and it would help the business and not prevent their growth.

Sandy Hash-The variance document, if not well documented, we may have difficulty locating or verifying this information years from now.

Russ Ryle- Mustang Drive.

Frank Nierzwicki- Ellettsville is a rural community, with not a lot of development going on, and we have a simple zoning situation going on. We have 3 zoning classifications, residential, commercial and industrial with 3 zones each. (R1, R2, R3…). Many places will have 3 to 5 times more, this allows more deferential between the zones. To do something along those lines would be a big effort. It can take years. We’re not going to do that, I’m not saying we shouldn’t, but I’m just telling you how time consuming it is.

Russ Ryle- Carl what is your timeline to getting this underway.

Carl Thurman- 7:30, no that’s a little humor, it would have to be as soon as possible. I just want the assurance that I can build a good viable business that I could sell as it is, or if the business did fail I would have a good industrial property to re-sell.

Sandy Hash- He is an economic developer, he’s coming into our redevelopment area, and he’s going to take an existing structure and he’s going to update it and improve it and pay tax dollars into your redevelopment area. It’s a win, win. I say we accept him and make him commercial and let him go on with his business and put him it in our plan. ****If we can’t vote, then we need to strike out the minutes.

Russ Ryle- Here, here.

Frank Nierzwicki- What do you want me to do.

Bob Sowder- I want to get my two cents in. The town code points out what you can have and what you can’t have in commercial zoning. Let’s go back to when Bill Land, planner, we had all kinds of brain storming. I remember when the downtown was discussed, and that we wanted to attract business into it, commercial businesses and so on and so forth. I can’t understand why in the world you would want to downgrade a property from C-3 to C-2, it doesn’t affect me per say. I guess I believe when you buy a piece of property and it is already zoned C-3 then it shouldn’t be cut back to C-2 at the owner’s expense. I think it should be left at a C-3. I’ve been through this a couple of times, you pay your fees here and there and you were right all along. I don’t see why he should have to pay fees, just don’t mess with it and leave it alone. If you don’t want cars visible, then maybe you can work with him to have him put up a barrier or a fence around there, so they can’t be seen by the public. That’s my opinion on the whole mess. We want to draw business into Ellettsville, and the business that are here we want to cut them down, so we squeeze them out.

Sandy Hash- We’re punishing the ones we have we have in hopes that we will get others that are bigger and better.

Darby McCarty- I don’t think it’s about getting bigger business, there’s no way businesses can get bigger without combining parcels. You would have to knock everything down. I think part of the concern is whenever they sell something it doesn’t become an adult bookstore, it doesn’t become somebody selling lingerie, and it doesn’t become a gun shop where they may or may not have a target range. You’re still looking to the future, it’s not to minimize or degrade the people that are there now we’ve only had four businesses that have expressed a concern. We all understand the concern. At one time different things were done and accommodations were made in the past with past councils. That was the way back then, you made accommodations; all small towns did that.

Sandy Hash- But, the precedent was almost set when we had a map drawn out and this was the redevelopment area and then there were exceptions made, they were on the border and exceptions were made.

Darby McCarty- We’ll never get resolution if we don’t come to an accommodation.

Frank Nierzwicki- We tried to work with the Anderson’s on this, and your letter will be in the file. The issue with Carl, he’s right in the middle of that district area in the downtown. If directed by the PC and RC I’ll work with Carl, to try to come up with something that the town can live with and Carl can live with.

Sandy Hash- I’m still hung up on the procedure of giving him a variance. If he would start that process now…

Frank Nierzwicki- What I was trying to do, because there are issue on trying to get this closing this business. To go to May 1, for the meeting, for the sake of argument, we change that to C-2 is to try to have something scheduled May the 6^th. I have to talk to 5 people and there’s all kind of scheduling issues. If it comes down to the point we don’t have to do that we’ll cancel that. I’m trying to be accommodating to Carl if he doesn’t get what he wants on May 1, this will give him an option to work something out later on.

Sandy Hash- This plan will be finalized May 1^st?

Frank Nierzwicki- I think that’s what we are talking about.

Sandy Hash- So, then after this plan is finalized it goes to council meetings and a 30 day filing….

Frank Nierzwicki- No, the schedule works on this for redevelopment, we have May 1 here with the PC, we accept the zoning, then it goes to TC to approve or disapprove, then it goes back to the RC.

Sandy Hash- Somewhere along the line it has to go to TC and an ordinance takes two readings and a publication. So, if it has to go back to RC, do they have the authority or does it ultimately lie with the TC, at what point……

Frank Nierzwicki- This is where I need to read the new law. The old law, the RC had the final say.

Sandy Hash- You have to have the redevelopment area established before the RC has the authority and doesn’t the TC have to give its approval……..

Frank Nierzwicki- The way it is written and what we’ve been working on, is the final say is with the RC.

Sandy Hash- It has to be put into town code somewhere.

Frank Nierzwicki- Once it goes back, we have to have a tax impact study completed there’s a notice….

Sandy Hash- Will that be done professionally by an accounting firm?

Frank Nierzwicki- Well, what budget do I take that from?

Sandy Hash-I think it should be done.

Frank Nierzwicki-Then that will be up to council. It’s not in any budget line for redevelopment. There’s a public hearing notice 10 days prior to the hearing and RC holds the final hearing.

Sandy Hash- So at what point is that put in code.

Frank Nierzwicki- To be quite honest Sandy, I don’t know right now. I have to read the new law. I’m just telling you how it was set up at the end of last year. We could go ahead and have the PC come up with their approval on the May 1.

Sandy Hash-I think it would be easier if we have a timeline and it’s before us and the procedure was outlined.

Frank Nierzwicki-May 13 would be the first meeting, and then it’s the 27^th because of Memorial Day.

Darlyne Sowder- I called the state representatives office today and they said that you can’t change a zone without it being approved by the TC, so it has to pass the TC.

Frank Nierzwicki-In the old process there was review and approval by TC. I don’t disagree with what you are saying.

Darby McCarty- Whatever you do, it will be a long process anyway.

Phil Smith- The way it is now, we can’t give him a definite answer by June 1^st, and that’s when he planned on being opened.

Carl Thurman- Our intention is to purchase the property as a C-3, now if that changes Dan may not be willing to honor what agreement we have. He may not accept what I’ve offered. I want everything to be a win win for Dan and myself.

Frank Nierzwicki-We could call a special meeting.

Sandy Hash- I think we need to get some legal advice.

Frank Nierzwicki- I’m saying somewhere between April and May is to have a special meeting to approve or not approve the redevelopment plan and the zoning.

Carl Thurman- Would your plan be hampered to exclude this property?

Frank Nierzwicki-That would have to be discussed by the PC.

Darlyne Sowder- I’m a C-2 and they changed me with no notification, and that is why I’ve talked to Carl and the Anderson’s and have asked them to take precautions to make sure the same thing didn’t happen to them.

Russ Ryle- When the Anderson’s were excluded did the TC have to vote on this, how was that authorized?

Sandy Hash- Frank did it.

Russ Ryle- Then Frank needs to do this one too.

Carl Thurman- Is this possible.

Sandy Hash- I think there is a lot of confusion, we all need to understand what we can and can’t do.

Frank Nierzwicki- So, what do you want me to do?

Sandy Hash- I know what I want you to do, but I can’t speak for the group. I can’t direct you alone. We have a meeting of the PC next week. I think this was a work session to hear public views and for us to exchange views. There will be a regular meeting with the full PC and see what their thoughts are. We’ll go from there.

Frank Nierzwicki- I’ll look at the dates and what is required by law.

Sandy Hash- Have it written down and in front of us to view.

Frank Nierzwicki- Yes, I’ll give this to you before hand as an option. We have to have public notice on a meeting. I’ll be prepared next week to tell you the dates. I think what we are trying to do, is to accommodate Carl and the business transaction as much as we can. I don’t have anything else, any more comments.

Phil Smith- This raises a lot of questions I need answered and this will take awhile.

Sandy Hash- I would like everyone to read about the RC and what their powers are. We all need to be familiar with the process.

The meeting is adjourned, thank you all for attending.