The Ellettsville, Indiana Plan Commission met in regular session on
Roll Call: Members
present were: President- Terry Baker, Vice President-Sandra
Hash, Dan Swafford, Don Calvert, Ron Wayt, Frank Buczolich, Phil Smith, Connie
Griffin, Dexter Luck and Micah Austin. (A few members came in late after roll
call)
Members Absent: Director of Planning- Frank Nierzwicki.
Approval of the Minutes-
Terry Baker- Do I hear a motion?
Don Calvert, I make a motion to approve of the
Old Business
Proposed
changes to the
Terry Baker- We are going to allow our attending citizen the
courtesy to speak before we review the proposed code changes, since his comments
have to do with signage.
Frank Terkhorn- True Value Hardware- I want to speak as a small
business owner and their importance to the community and the
Dexter had called me about an issue, and I'm not trying to persuade the
board to do one thing or the other, but I would like us to look at small
businesses as an opportunity.
Ellettsville is still one of the only town's in the community where we
still have the opportunity to excite small businesses to come to this
area. I want you to think about, when you
look at rules and regulations, that small businesses have to deal with all of
the different governmental agencies we deal with, so as a small business we
have to become experts at a lot of different things. So, anything you can do to make it easier for
small businesses to exist in our community would be really advantageous for us
to have that.
I talk about embracing small business and I've been a member of the
Chamber of Commerce for a long time and some of the economic development
groups. There are only a few people in
this community that actually do anything.
It's so small and it's somewhat disappointing.
If a business displays banners that are tacky and not kept up, then
that business is probably going to do very poorly. But a business that keeps a shabby display on
the outside of their business they will probably go out of business, because
people won't want to shop at that particular business. This is my pitch, businesses have a lot to do
just to survive. There is a 5% chance to
succeed in business. So, anything I can
do to help this board, I'll be happy to help. We are the donators of this
community, if a church comes to me, I'll donate, if a school organization comes
to me- I'll donate. Most of us, small
businesses will donate. I would rather
give to them than pay taxes; if you will.
Thank you for your time.
Sandra Hash- Frank was the temporary banners something that
bothered you?
Frank Terkhorn-No, when Dexter called me, I said yes, that banner is
tacky. It should have been taken
down. Banners are one way for us to
catch driver's attention. They are
critical for businesses, and if they come tattered they should come down.
Dexter Luck- Could you tell me the life of a banner.
Frank Terkhorn- About 3 months.
Dexter Luck- I think that has a lot to do with how we look at this
ordinance. I think this ordinance will
need fine tuning, on how often we inspect and how we enforce it. We are proposing to allow businesses to use
up to 3 banners per business. I know
suppliers furnish banners.
Do we want to go ahead and address the banners?
Sandra Hash- Is it 3 banners at a time?
Dexter Luck- 3 banners per business, approved banners, with
inspections once a month, since we didn't really know how long they last. We are also looking at a $10.00 fee to cover
the inspection cost; $10.00 per business site.
I think this is something we can work with and be somewhat
flexible. If the signs are good for
about 90 days, then maybe we could inspect them every 90 days. I think we have to realize that not everyone
will police their own banners. The
permit would be re-issued every 90 days with a $10.00 fee.
Sandra Hash- How do you feel about the fee?
Micah
Dan Swafford- I want to add something, this is an issue I've been
working on with Connie, because the key to business is advertising. My feelings on this I think businesses should
be allowed on site banners as long as they are in good condition. I think a fine should be imposed at the time
you see a banner that is hand written, or in bad shape, then and not put a fee
on putting banners up. If we warn you
once, you need to take it down, then asses a fine.
Sandra Hash- So, you don't think there should be a charge for a
banner?
Dan Swafford- No, because it would be excessive, and businesses
like to do new things weekly to bring business in, this would be very expensive
to a business.
Dexter Luck- I don't think we are talking about every time you put
one up, were talking about at least a 30 to 90 day period, and we have put it
in the ordinance for the signs to be professionally produced.
We want to work with businesses.
This is the only area that allows banners for more than two weeks.
Frank Terkhorn- I understand, I have some problems with
Dexter Luck- The reason we determined that 3 banners is enough per
site, is from some of the current businesses in town, because certain
businesses are hanging more than 3 banners and it seems to us that 3 is enough
per business. Each banner can be 9
square feet.
Don Calvert- Is 3 banners enough for your business?
Terry Baker- If I had my preferences it would be one banner per site
unless they are attached to the fascia of the building, then they can have 3,
but if they are free standing one.
Phil Smith- We may change our signs at
Dexter Luck - The way I understand it, it's 3 banners for a set
period of time, if you want to change from Coke to Pepsi, that's still a
banner, if you put it in the same place.
You could change it every day.
Dan Swafford- Usually two weeks prior to an event is plenty of time
to advertise for a special event with a banner.
Terry Baker- Yes.
Dan Swafford- Banner advertising at Hoosier Bar we could have
banners up two weeks before and after an event.
Dexter Luck- I think the big question I have is the enforcement and
the time. We have to have an inspection,
at least every 90 days, if we don't we'll have tacky banners.
Frank Terkhorn- How many tacky banners do we have in town.
Dan Swafford- I think each business could have 3 banners, and if
the code states professionally made, then when we see a banner in bad shape or
if it's blocking vision at an intersection, then we should address that
problem. I don't think applying for a
permit is really going to work. I wanted
a banner up every Thursday for our chicken advertisement, so does that mean
every Thursday, I would have to apply for a permit?
Dexter Luck- So, do you think it would be a good idea to include 3
banners in the sign permit application.
Dan Swafford- I think that is a good idea and then stipulate the
rules at that time.
Micah Austin- A banner is considered a temporary sign, the way the
code is written. So, we need to separate
banner out of temporary sign and say all temporary signs will require a
permit.
A temporary sign is a non-permanent sign or banner that is attached to
a structure or anchored into the ground, which describes a one-time or
infrequent activity for advertising.
Dan Swafford- I think it should be an annual permit.
Dexter Luck- It could be added into the sign permit fee.
Sandra Hash- If you think you want to use banners the sign permit
fee could be increased, if you don't think you'll use them then it could be the
$50.00 fee. Then you could have a
maximum of 3 banners, for 3 months a piece.
Ron Wayt- Why charge at all?
Sandra Hash- Like Dexter said, it would help cover the cost of the
inspection.
Ron Wayt- What does it take?
It doesn't take that much to go through that and do that, why punish a
business.
Terry Baker- For the same reason they collect taxes.
Ron Wayt- I think an ordinance would be better in this case,
that way you can fine them afterwards.
If their banner is unsightly that's when you do an ordinance.
Dexter Luck- It does take time and there is an expense for
fuel.
Ron Wayt- There is an expense with everything, but to add
$10.00, if I have to put up a banner for my business and I have 3 of them and
it's $10.00 its $30.00 for each 30 days, is it not as proposed, that's too
expensive. I would say do an ordinance
that covers it and then fine them if they don't do it. That's a better approach. When you get into this, you don't know how
many banners you are going to put up.
Don Calvert- I think we need to consider how much money these
businesses put into donations also, and the kids from the school- someone is
coming everyday for money. I think
personally, I would be in favor of encouraging business and again, if they
don't cooperate then fine them.
Dexter Luck- One thing to consider is that businesses may be
inclined to use banners as their primary advertisement and do away with the
professional signage.
We can re-write this and put it before you.
Phil Smith- Is Zig Zag's one big banner?
Dexter Luck- It is a banner material, he has it on the roof and
all along and around the entry way. This
is in violation of the square footage with the signage.
He doesn't have a permanent sign, and he doesn't have a sign permit on
file.
Phil Smith- What's the difference between that sign and I think
it's the church that has a vinyl sign in a frame? More businesses are going to this, they'll
have a vinyl sign printed and put it in where the permanent sign used to
be. It doesn't have a hard backing.
Sandra Hash- We passed this years ago, when you change the
lettering on a permanent sign you are supposed to pay the $50.00 sign permit
fee, so I would think that would apply to that.
Phil Smith- Is that considered a permanent sign?
Connie Griffin- It's considered non-permanent. Vee Twin Performance are
starting to mount banner signs all along the outside of their building. So, all of a sudden banners are popping up
everywhere. In order not to spend much
more time on this section, you basically would like to see something for banner
and temporary signs before the next meeting, something new, and if we submit
those to you early enough then you can give us your feedback on the process on
no permit fee, and no time restriction?
We'll come back before you……
Sandra Hash- Are you sure that is the consensus from everyone?
Connie Griffin- I'm basing this on some of the opinions we've heard
and maybe giving you a couple of options and then you could report back on
those options.
Dan Swafford- This is a touch one guys, we want our town to look
nice but we don't want to hinder businesses and making a profit, it will be a
give and take.
Phil Smith- I like the fine part at the end, instead of paying a
permit fee.
Sandra Hash- Do we all agree on that?
Terry Baker- No. I think
banners should have to be attached to the building itself and not free
standing, because you will have them lined up one, two, three, 9 square feet
each. We're going to have a whole line
of banners along the highway. I don't
want to see that. If you have to attach
them to a building that will keep them off the road.
Phil Smith- You would have the problem of how the business is
positioned and the visibility of the road.
Ron Wayt- I think if it's attached to the building that would
be a option or to an already existing sign, something like that might work
better.
Terry Baker- That would keep from having free standing signs out
along the edge of the highway.
Frank Buczolich- How does Eagle's Landing handle their signs.
Terry Baker- They have a big wall there.
Ron Wayt- And, they have a big sign.
Connie Griffin- The big tall sign doesn't have enough place markers
for all of the businesses inside the building.
That's one reason why Melendorf put up a sign that sits underneath the
large sign. It was professionally made,
but it's sticking right under the big sign.
Dan Swafford- What's the new YMCA going to do down there.
Connie Griffin- I don't know just yet, they haven't filed out a sign
permit.
Dan Swafford- No one takes care of the
Sandra Hash- That is a land lord issue, I don't see how we can
force them to keep them updated.
I still think 30 days is enough for a banner to be displayed, not to be
displayed for more than four times per year.
So, they couldn't put one up and take one down and put up another one. Only four out of 12 months could they have a
banner.
Terry Baker- Well, that's a special promotion sign, not a banner
sign. I can halfway agree on not
charging for the permit, and fine them on the end if the sign is in bad
shape. As long as they know up front
that if they let their signs get that way, they'll be paying a fine.
Dexer Luck- I still think we have to have a maximum number that
we allow for banners.
Terry Baker- Definitely.
Ron Wayt- Are special promotion signs not considered banners?
Terry Baker- No.
Connie Griffin- A special promotion sign is a free standing sign,
where a banner has to be attached to something.
A special promotion is like a sandwich board in itself or like a yard
sign. It sounds like we need to do some
more work on some of these codes.
Terry Baker- What does free standing mean?
Connie Griffin- In my opinion is like a sandwich board, it doesn't
require posts. It's on its own.
Can I make a suggestion- I think our economic times, have made us have
to pay more attention to this code, but if it's alright can we re-submit this
instead of spending more time on this.
Phil Smith- But, we are having so much fun.
Connie Griffin- There's a lot more fun to be had.
We need to go back to page 6, we've been going over signs. At the last meeting we were discussing
rutting and parking on the grass. The Street Department often get assigned the
task of cleaning up violations. Sandra
asked me, at the last meeting, if I had talked to the Street Department about
working on the ruts and repair in the yards that have been damaged by parking. I talked with Jim Ragle, and he does not want
to be responsible for going into the yards and dealing with these issues. And we agreed to that, so if you would like
to read through the proposed code.
It would be a fining system and if the fines are not paid it goes to a
lien. The violation would continue to be
fined until they fix it, with the appropriate time frame, based on the season,
as situational. We will deal with each
one separately.
Sandra Hash- You clarified this is something we can file a lien
on.
Connie Griffin- Yes.
Let's go ahead and move forward to page 9. Under 152.255 we decided to add
professionally produced for signs. Every
sign needs to be professionally produced.
Sandra Hash- I like that.
Connie Griffin- We will work with banners, now the non-commercial
opinion signs, I didn't receive any comments.
On page 10, you will see the new definition, taken from
Please go to page 14, Political Signs, I did the research as requested,
we looked at
It will become an issue with the ACLU, they will go one at a time, but
everything I submitted to you tells me, especially with
Sandra Hash- And they do.
Ron Wayt- With the political signs, once they become tattered
and torn, then we can take them out, I like that, but can we not put it in the
code that they have to be removed after the election.
Connie Griffin- That's correct.
We cannot put any time frame on them, no display time frame, it's
against the freedom of speech act. We
added if it becomes unsightly it becomes litter to try to help us with this
issue.
Dan Swafford- And those signs don't last long.
Ron Wayt- That's fine then.
Connie Griffin- Page 22, #14, We are still having difficulty with
comments on interior signs, scrolling interior signs, behind interior glass,
and they can't exceed 9 by 32 inches in size.
This would allow the current scrolling signs, they fall into this
category. We are trying to help
businesses. If you feel this isn't
worded correctly, we would like to have your suggestions.
Frank Buczolich- I think the concern she raised was among the one or
two that if they just enclose them behind glass, is that they are inside a window,
whereas if they are enclosed in glass that can mean where ever they are they
can be enclosed in glass.
Phil Smith- I think that's fair.
What did we ever decide about strobe lights?
Connie Griffin- I think those are a visual impairment in town.
Phil Smith- One is at the video store by the church- Video to Go,
and I think Zig Zag's has a blue flashing light or red, like on the top of
police cars.
Sandra Hash- We used to say no flashing lights what so ever.
Terry Baker- Somewhere in the code it says something about
distracting, causing a distraction, this would be considered a distraction, and
you can go after it like that.
Connie Griffin- Our new code enforcement officer, Dexter Luck, Dexter
has been with us for about 3 weeks, he's been an incredible addition to the
department. He's helping review the
codes and he's come up with a new code he would like to bring before you.
Dexter Luck- Abandoned Vehicles.
Under Chapter 94, it states abandoned vehicles- we would like to change
this and bring it in line with state law-Abandoned Salvage and Scrap vehicles.
Phil Smith- What do you consider abandoned?
Dexter Luck- I do not have that definition with me, but basically
it's a vehicle IC 9 13 2 1. It's a vehicle parked on a street, public or
private property that is not being used, and it starts to become deteriorated.
Phil Smith- So, it's dependent on the condition of the
vehicle.
Dexter Luck- If it's not being used and it just sits there for a
period of time. Then it can be
considered abandoned and then if it starts having parts removed from it or
taken apart and parts are piled up in the drive way, then that becomes a
salvage or scrap vehicle.
We need to bring this part of the ordinance in line with the state
statute. We operate from the state
statute, except for these few modifications.
Phil Smith- Are you going to use the IC code in the ordinance.
Dexter Luck- We have adopted the entire state code by ordinance.
The definition is a one paragraph statement, and it's in my desk at work.
Sandra Hash- Is this only on public right of ways?
Dexter Luck- No, abandoned vehicles falls under public and private
property, if it may be seen from public property that's the key. State code was supplied to Dexter and he read
the code for the Plan Commissioners.
Dan Swafford- I know there was a car left at
Dexter Luck- Under IC 9 22 1 2, officer definition was read. The Planning Department or Code Enforcement
Officer would be responsible for the removal and towing from private
property. We have to go out and
document, photograph the vehicle, and notify the owner and before it's towed it
has to have a 72 hour notice posted.
I have talked to Tony Bolin and he may choose to issue a portable radio
and he's in favor to the change of this ordinance. I counted 19 in one addition.
Ron Wayt- Does this include RV's and Boat's?
Dexter Luck- It could. We
have adopted state statutes as ordinances, except for two pages, where we
specifically tuned to Ellettsville's needs.
Sandra Hash- We don't want to hold this up, while we do the rest.
Dexter Luck- You also want to address section 94.04 Towing Removal
and Storage Charges. This was adopted in
1986. It sets towing fees at $40.00 for
towing and removal and $5.00 for storage.
We would like to add that the Town of
Terry Baker- I like that.
Sandra Hash- Our code is on line and people read it. I make a motion to act now on the suggestions
for vehicles and get that put in ordinance form and forwarded to the Town
Council as soon as possible.
Ron Wayt- Are towing companies restricted on fees is there a
state limit?
Dexter Luck- The Town can actually take bids from towing
companies. I discussed this with Scott
Oldham and he has some ideas. It's a
competitive market in pricing.
You can include all of these changes in one motion.
Sandra Hash- I make a motion to approve of all of the Chapter 94
code changes.
Dan Swafford- I'll second the motion.
Terry Baker- A motion has been made and seconded to approve of all
proposed changes to Chapter 94 Ellettsville Town Code. Roll Call
Terry Baker- Yes
Sandra Hash- Yes
Ron Wayt- Yes
Don Calvert- Yes
Frank Buczolich- Yes
Dan Swafford- Yes
Phil Smith-Yes
Motion carries, unanimously.
Connie Griffin- I sent to you the sanitary vault privy code research,
the definition was read.
Sandra Hash- So, we are going to remove the word vault and add
sanitary vault privy and this would be that definition.
Connie Griffin- Yes, it was
referring to this, so this just clears up the statement/definition.
Let's go to the satellite dish.
We made the following changes- the changes were read; business media
outlets was added, and the size of the satellite dish was changed from 2 meters
for residential and 4 meters for business media outlets and that will include
our newest member to the community.
Dan Swafford- So, how big is a 4 meter dish?
Connie Griffin- It will cover the one for Mid America Radio
Station. It's around 12 feet.
Dan Swafford- Why are we changing this?
Terry Baker- Because we didn't have anything in place to cover
commercial properties.
Dan Swafford- So, by old code that dish should have never been put
up? Is that what you are saying.
Terry Baker- There was nothing keeping from putting it up. We didn't have anything for dish antennas at
all for commercial. We have to be
careful on trying to regulate something that is regulated by the federal
government, like amateur radio.
Ron Wayt- Any television, radio station, or newspaper office
won't use the same residential size satellite dish. If any other radio station wants to come in,
they will be covered by the new code.
Dan Swafford- So, 4 meters is approximately 12 foot. What is the size of the one up there now?
Ron Wayt- It's 12 feet.
Dan Swafford- How many can they have, a thousand up there, were
going to let them stick them up there?
This is exactly why I raised a stink when this came in, in the first
place.
Connie Griffin- We could add one as the total amount on property.
Ron Wayt- You can't do that with a television station, or a
media outlet, it would have to be done when they come in. They aren't going to
have 10.
Dan Swafford- Why weren't we told that this one was going to be
there? When they came in front of
us? They said they were going to put one
in on top of the tower. This is not on
the top of the tower, this is in front of the building on the highway, on the
ground on a pole.
Sandra Hash-Do you remember them talking about this at the
meeting- asking Connie Griffin.
Connie Griffin- I don't remember it being mentioned.
Dan Swafford- That was my exact comment- I don't want to see our
highway littered with all of these dishes and boom here they came.
Terry Baker- Are you going to grandfather my dish.
Sandra Hash- Your dish is concealed.
Ron Wayt- Are you residential?
Terry Baker- Yes.
Ron Wayt- There you go.
Terry Baker- But, it's a commercial dish, I receive down feeds
from satellite.
Ron Wayt- I think the problem is with WCLS, that's who it
is. They have run into so many problems
coming into this community, that enough is enough. They are not feeling welcome, they've contacted
me and have talked about this. I've
explained to Tony that there are certain rules and regulations that you have to
go through, no matter what community you go into. But, they feel it has been excessive. I proposed this. I sent this out to all of the Plan Commission
e-mails, so Dan you should have received a copy. Anyone that deals with broadcast companies
should know they are going to need satellite dishes to receive their feeds,
it's not done with the Internet. That's
not reliable communication for a radio or TV station. In order for WCLS to have ABC news that is
required for them to have a dish of that size.
ABC news requires this of them.
Dan Swafford- But, that may all be fine and well, but this was a
residential place that was in a residential area that we rezoned.
Ron Wayt- It was rezoned to commercial before they started
their process, right? So, this would be
a commercial satellite dish.
Dan Swafford- I don't even remember how it went down, because it was
so screwed up in the first place.
What I'm saying this went into a residential area in the first place.
Sandra Hash- Can I run through the chain of events:
First they came to Frank Nierzwicki, they wanted to come into the Town
of
So, in a good will gesture we said we realize that is our mistake, we
informed you correctly, so we are going to do the public notice, we are going to send your neighbors
the certified letters. We will have another
public meeting to do your zoning change and then we did all of that and yes,
there was controversy during the change and discussion. It passed and then it went to the Town
Council and they passed that. The issue
that upset them was that they had been delayed because had they realized the
zoning change, they could have done that along with the BZA and been a little
more ahead with a shorter time frame. It
was an inconvenience for them, but we did try to compensate for our error.
Ron Wayt- There has been mis-communication between all of the
departments involved with that radio station and they were flooded out of
Spencer and
Dan Swafford- The question was asked specifically what you were
going to put up there, and they didn't mention this dish. So, I'm not happy, they lied to us.
Ron Wayt- Have you had any complaints?
Dan Swafford- Yes.
Ron Wayt- From whom?
Dan Swafford- Several different residents.
Ron Wayt- Several different people. I haven't heard anything.
Dan Swafford- I think it's unsightly.
Connie Griffin- I think the placement could have been approached
maybe a little bit differently.
Ron Wayt- The placement of a satellite dish has to within a
certain trajectory for the satellite.
That's the way that one is. They
could paint it to make it fit in a little better, which I 'm sure they would
do, if someone asked them. But, you are
going to end up chasing out a radio
station out of the community, if this continues, to keep harassing them.
Phil Smith- They aren't being harassed.
Dan Swafford- This is far from being harassed.
Ron Wayt- Every little thing, according to Frank, Frank has
been in the middle between Town Council members and this and the radio
station. There have been several things
going on. And Scott Oldham is looking
into it. There have been some things
that have been pushed for Frank to go look at to pick on the radio
station. And I think Tony Kail has
talked to me, and he's talked to several other members of the community and
I've not heard of any complaints about the satellite dish.
Phil Smith- I've had probably six complaints.
Ron Wayt- It's a satellite dish, it's a radio station. The two are going to be right there
together.\
Dan Swafford- When you say
there's complaint, you mean they were in violation of ordinances and he went to
check on, or
Ron Wayt- You would have to ask him that.
Sandra Hash- I think I remember them saying they were going to put
a small satellite on the tower.
Phil Smith- There wasn't anything said about them putting in a
dish in the front of the building, because I wouldn't have passed it.
Terry Baker- We should have probably figured it out, because……
Dan Swafford- I hate to say it Terry, but I did. But, I was a lone soldier up here.
Phil Smith- I still don't understand why it couldn't have been put
behind the building.
Dexter Luck- I looked at it and agreeing with what you said, that
dish could have been moved backed at least 30 to 40 feet from where it is right
now.
Sandra Hash- To the side of
the building.
Dexter Luck- It still would have been able to pick up the
satellite feed. It's all underground
wire and it's mounted in, so it would be expensive at this point to move.
Phil Smith- Yes it would.
Ron Wayt- It was mis-communication between the Planning
Department and on their part. I think
it's 50/50.
Dexter Luck- I think future installations the best site needs to
be selected, instead of that close to the road.
Dan Swafford- That's why we go through all of these things. We had plans, we looked at their plans, the
whole bit and nothing was mentioned of it, and I even asked them.
Phil Smith- So, did I.
Dan Swafford- I don't want this code to allow other places to come
into our town and stick these dishes along our highway and junk up our town. These are no different than signs being stuck
right out there on the highway. I don't
care who they are, radio station, TV, they are ugly and unsightly.
Ron Wayt- But, that is where the Planning Dept. comes in to
tell them where they can and cannot put them.
Their engineers tell them where that satellite dish goes.
Phil Smith- But, did they ask.
Sandra Hash- But, surely something that large they would have
thought they would need a permit to do that.
If you have to have a permit for a sign, a huge satellite dish…The
people that install them know they types of permits that are necessary. I don't want to be unfriendly to them, and I
see your side. At the same time, they
should have come to and maybe they did, and that's part of the mis-communication
you are talking about. Maybe they went
to Frank and asked about the tower…..
Micah
Terry Baker- Frank called me and asked about it, I said it just
popped up. I don't know anything about
it.
Dan Swafford- I asked them, in there, this is the only thing going
on this, you aren't going to allow any other one else to hook up to your tower
or anything like that. No. That was it and then boom here we get this
great big ugly 12 foot dish right on the highway.
If we are going to pass this ordinance and allow other businesses to do
it, I'm not for that.
Micah
Ron Wayt- So, that's the problem, that's why passing this will
alleviate this from happening in the future.
Phil Smith- No, it doesn't eliminate the problem.
Dan Swafford- It will open it up for everyone else………..
Ron Wayt- What other communication company/business in the Town
of
Sandra Hash- This whole wireless communication facility was done
because the town was contacted and they wanted to put in a tower for cell
phones. The Town Council at the time
immediately put a moratorium on that, to freeze that possibility, because they
didn't want it just off the highway, they wanted it to be around Long John
Silver's, right by the highway. And,
then the council worked intently to get this wireless communication up, so it
is difficult to put these kind of things up and it has to be scrutinized and
require engineering and lots of detail and it amazes me that this dish wasn't
covered.
Dan Swafford- If we pass this here you are going to open the door
for another business to come in and do the same thing. Whereas, other businesses come to us, they
have plans, blue prints for us to see for us to approve and they aren't hiding
anything from us.
Ron Wayt- Can it not be written in there that it requires
approval. Does it not.
Dan Swafford- Well, you would have thought it had approval before
they stuck it up the first time. But
they obviously didn't ask for our approval.
Sandra Hash- Are we sure that they didn't have to apply for a
permit or ask for permission?
Ron Wayt- It states there conditional use approval shall be
required for the following, and it gives placement of a WCF in the following
zoning districts and provides that their shall be set backs from the property
lines and so on……..does that not cover that it requires…..I would think a
planning engineer, like Frank, would know that this will require a satellite
dish for a radio station or a tower or something like that.
Phil Smith- The trouble is, we were told the only thing they were
going to have was a tower with a dish on top of it.
Dan Swafford- And we approved the tower.
Ron Wayt- I'm not saying it's all Frank's fault, it's between
the two of them. So, yes, they are
partially at fault and the Planning Department is partially at fault. But, let's make it work for them or any other
media outlet that we have. Are you going
to tell me you don't want another radio station coming into town?
Dan Swafford- I don't want another dish on my highway.
Ron Wayt- Well, it's not your highway.
Dan Swafford- My personal feeling is no. They can do that where it looks nice, and
they can put set backs on that and like I said they could have set that back 40
feet more from the highway.
Ron Wayt- Maybe they could not have. We're not engineers.
Dan Swafford- That's why they have to come to us for approval and
that's why we cannot pass this here to allow them to do it, just because in
it's our code. They have to come before
this board.
Sandra Hash- The only other option would be to go to the BZA.
Ron Wayt- If they go to the BZA and possibly get turned down
just like Dexter said, it would be very expensive to move the dish. You are going to ask them to jump through
another hurdle and it's going to make the Town of
Sandra Hash- But, if we have codes and we don't enforce that
code….
Ron Wayt- That's why we are changing this code.
Too many talking- couldn't take it down.
Ron Wayt- This code was not in place, was it, so you can't say
that Dan. Now we need to word it where
an engineer or someone needs to look over for the placement of the satellite
dish on future….
Too many talking- couldn't take it down.
Terry Baker- ……..it needs to worded like Smithville. So, they have to have a certified FCC
engineer come in and state this is where it has to go.
Ron Wayt- Exactly, so in the future we won't have this problem.
Dexter Luck- You might want to require a site plan.
Terry Baker- I feel like they took advantage of us, they stuck the
thing out there, knowing full well that it shouldn't be that way. We've been as friendly as we can, we've bent
over backwards to try to get everything done for them and then they stick this
big dish out there.
Dan Swafford- We were threatened publicly by them.
Sandra Hash- Not by them, by their realtor.
Phil Smith- By the owner too.
He said…
Ron Wayt- But you all passed it, if you had reservations you
shouldn't have passed it.
Sandra Hash-But we……..it's in the minutes that they said they
would only put in a small dish on the antenna.
Dan Swafford- I fought it.
Ron Wayt- But, there's no code for commercial satellite
dishes.
Dan Swafford- Where does the 2 meter, I don't see it?
Sandra Hash- It's right here in the exceptions Dan, on column C.
Micah
Sandra Hash- But, does that not say that the only exception is
police, fire and ambulance?
Terry Baker- So, they violated the code.
Micah Austin- It specifies residential.
Terry Baker- Right.
Dan Swafford- They didn't follow the exemptions, which they may
fall under emergency dispatch. I don't
know.
So, really I think if I were reading this code and I was putting this
in, I would have asked for clarification before I put the dish up, if this was
going to violate code.
Micah Austin- Do you remember when Smithville was going to put in
the wireless tower, they Photoshoped in the dishes, we didn't get that, we got
something else, but I think right now what we need from you are suggestions on
how we need to change the code. And
we'll bring this before the board next time.
There are some discussion on this, and that's great, but it's going back
and forth on the same thing. So, I just
suggest we put together some ideas and let the Planning Department hash out the
new code.
Terry Baker- Sounds good.
Dan Swafford- But, it has to be approved by Planning. I want to know where the dish is going to be
before I approve anything.
Micah
Dan Swafford- Right. But,
that exemption needs to be taken out.
Terry Baker- And I think the wording needs to go back to the same
wording we used on Smithville, where they had to have a certified engineer say
here is what it's going to be by FCC definition.
Sandra Hash- Does the saucer not fall in a WCF? To me that is yes, because it receives radio
waves that are wireless. Any of that
requires all of our codes, the engineering, the only exception to that rule is
residential satellite dishes that are 2 meters.
So, to me, it may not spell it out here, but it is a WCF device.
Ron Wayt- So you are saying that the placement of a WCF in the
following zoning districts A-1, I-1 and I-2, so what are those? So that radio station is still not zoned
properly. It should have been zoned
industrial.
Terry Baker- We were not asked to zone it industrial.
Ron Wayt- But, someone should have brought that up.
Dan Swafford- We didn't know this was coming Ron.
Ron Wayt- It's a WCF, so it's considered a radio station,
wouldn't that be part of it?
Dan Swafford- So, your saying it should have been industrial zoned?
Ron Wayt- We would have to read through this a little bit.
Terry Baker- It's up to the property owners to request what type
of zoning they want, it's not up to us to tell them this is what you really
need.
Ron Wayt- So, you were not informed by the realtor that WCLS
was coming in to town and that's what that building was going to be used
for?
Sandra Hash- Yes, we were and they had been to the BZA.
Dan Swafford- Ron let me ask you this……..as the land owner wouldn't
you know what the land is zoned as when you own that land?
Ron Wayt- If you aren't familiar with the town you may not.
Dexter Luck- One thing you might consider, is that they came from
Dan Swafford- Shouldn't the owner of the property know what the
property is zoned? The realtor called
the Planning Dept. and the Planning Dept. gave him the wrong zoning. It was zoned residential. He told them C-3.
Sandra Hash- I think the conditional uses outlines this, it
doesn't state that you can't put it in commercial, but there are conditional
uses, as defined in A-1. She read from
the code. We don't even know if the dish
has been authorized or meets the FCC regulations.
Dexter Luck- The satellite would have to work or it wouldn't
receive.
Ron Wayt- Do we really want to shut them down?
Don Calvert- Do any of us intend to shut them down, or force them
to move their dish?
Dan Swafford- I don’t want to force them…..
Don Calvert- I'm just asking do any of us intend to shut them
down, or force them to move their dish? Ok then, we don't have to discuss this
then. We need to look at a site plan and
specifics.
Sandra Hash- So, you are saying because they broke our rules, we
need to cater to them now, and say you are exempt from the rules because we
want your business?
Don Calvert- No, what I said was, if you have no intention of
forcing them to move the dish, then we don't even need to discuss this. What we need to do now, is being specific and
have a site plan where we know where something is going to go specifically.
Dan Swafford- The fact is they did do it……….
Ron Wayt- Then shut them down.
Too many talking can't understand.
Ron Wayt- If you are going to enforce this satellite dish, that
there are so many complaints on, then you need to shut them down. Then let's see how the town will get
sued.
There are lots of codes that aren't enforced. It's code.
Dexter Luck- The proper thing to do is to cover it by ordinance,
obviously we are going to have to address future ordinances, then BZA would be
the next step.
Ron Wayt- Ask them to go to the BZA for a variance.
Dan Swafford- That's what they need to do.
Ron Wayt- Then make them do that.
Terry Baker- And what if they say no?
Ron Wayt- The radio station is done.
Terry Baker- They are going to re-write this, so let's just move
on.
Connie Griffin- Some new codes we are looking at is removing snow
from the side walk. I'm also working on
the rental codes, abandoned structures, rental code, and fire codes. I'll also be looking at mobile homes, this
will be coming your way soon.
Dan Swafford- Change the one about fowl.
Phil Smith- Connie, give me a call and we'll re-write that whole
thing.
Connie Griffin- I have a feeling no one wants to hear about storm
water now, so if you agree let's move it to March 5th. It wasn't on the agenda. Let's start it at
New Business
Redevelopment goals were listed, the packet was delivered to you late,
so you may need more time to review the information.
Connie Griffin- Please review the document, because there is a March
5th date for approval. It's a lot of
information for me to give you. You have your Plan Commission legislative
procedures. Terry wanted the 3 minute
rule noted and if there is a conflict of interest.
If you have a conflict of interest you should leave your chair and go into
the audience.
Non Agenda Items
Adjournment
Terry Baker- I would entertain a motion.
Phil Smith- I make a motion we adjourn.
Dan Swafford- I second.
Terry Baker- All in favor say aye.
Adjourned. Meeting time ended: